So I must admit that I have not yet completed this book, although, I am finding it interesting. That said; I’m also quite confused. When I first started reading this book, I was completely lost. I couldn’t keep track of who was who and what time frame we were in and what the heck was going on. Eventually, I started realizing that we were sort of jumping back and forth between different times within the life of Stephen. It is almost like following the train of thought of someone who has no ability to stay focused on one thing. One thought reminds them of something else so then they start talking about that, and then that thought reminds them of something else and so on. Sort of like “Wiki-walking”, going to Wikipedia for one thing, finding a highlighted section related to something else and before you know it, you’ve spent 2 hours looking at Wikipedia, you’re on a completely different subject than intended and you’ve not even completed what you initially intended to do. But, I digress.
Now I’m not sure if that was James Joyce’s intention or not in his writing style for this novel, but the whole jumping here and there, distracted sort of writing seemed to follow exactly the confusion and feelings of being lost that Stephen seemed to be going through in the novel.
Now being a “recovering Catholic” myself, I found the religious commentary in this novel quite interesting. Hopefully my comments don’t offend anyone, just my opinions. I immediately related to the situation that Stephen discussed in the novel at his Christmas dinner with Dante, Mr. Casey and Simon. As with any great argument/discussion the topics usually revolve around religion and politics. Joyce wrote,
“God and religion before everything! Dante cried. God and religion before the world!” (Joyce 38).
Now in my personal opinion, religion and politics have no right to be tied to each other and when they do things always get heated. In this example, it is my opinion, that it’s these extreme views and complete lack of ability to allow others the right to their opinions that caused and continues to cause unnecessary violence in this world. This is almost completely the history of Ireland, dating back to the very beginnings with the druids and Milesians. Not to mention really it's the history of probably just about every country in the world. There's always a fight triggered due to religious beliefs that get involved in politics. Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps politics is a direct descendant of religion. Without religion, maybe there would have never been any politics since people would have possibly not had anything to fight about or cared.
And finally, continuing with the issues of religion, I was awe struck when reading the section on the “fire and brimstone” in the novel. Joyce’s descriptions actually made my stomach turn a little and completely brought back some of my own personal fears from childhood. The descriptions were so very vivid and quite honestly, so very “Catholic”. Again, having been raised Catholic by very devout Catholic grandparents (have been married 53 years and said/say the full rosary EVERY night) and having gone through 8 plus years of Catholic education; I’m only speaking of my own experiences. But the “fear factor” that the Catholic religion uses literally scares people into trying to be good. I was scared again (just a little) just reading this section. It is this fear that is driven into you from an early age that leads to extreme guilt over any misstep you take in life. I think this was very clearly demonstrated by Stephan throughout the book, but especially during the retreat. Joyce writes,
“God had called him. Yes? What? Yes? His flesh shrank together as it felt the approach of the ravenous tongues of flames, dried up as it felt about it the swirl of stifling air. He had died. Yes. He was judged.” (Joyce 134).
I definitely think this may be the purest form of guilt and utter terror when a sermon can bring about an almost complete psychological break down. Again, just my opinion, but not something I see as healthy at all and not something a religion should be known for.
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Loved reading your blog. Especially your take on religion. I had mentioned in Drea’s blog that I’m sure many of us have faced our own challenges and struggles when it comes to religion throughout our lives. Like you, I also went to catholic school. I only went up until the 3rd grade so I don’t remember much. My Mom decided to pull me out in 3rd grade because she remembers her own experience growing up in the catholic school. To my mom religion was a chore and like you said a “fear factor” this experience has ultimately destroyed her devotion to religion. My mother did not want me to experience the same negativity she faced with religion. Therefore, she pulled me out of catholic school. Throughout my life I have struggled with my faith. Much Like Stephen did in the novel. Unlike my parents, his were Devout Catholics. The type that almost “force religion down your throat.” As I was reading passages from the novel, I reflected upon some of my own experiences. I think if I grew up like Stephen, I too might want to “break free.” In chapter 3 Stephen is in complete agony about his horrible sin (sexual desire). I believe that it is human nature to sin. But in this chapter we see how the Catholic Religion literally controls Stephen’s every thought. He believes he will be damned to hell. Where is forgiveness? Isn’t his guilt enough to show that he shows remorse?
ReplyDelete“The second pain which will afflict the souls of the damned in hell is the pain of conscience” (122). This sin is literally eating away at Stephen’s soul. This “fear factor” is tearing him apart. I can see why he wanted to “break free” from such feelings.
I would be very interested in having a relgious discussion with you! Not intensely debated or anything like that but I would love to compare beliefs. I love learning about others religions and beliefs. What I know about Catholicism is ritualistic (which freaks me out to be honest) but also loving and very spiritual. I was raised Apostolic and identified very much with the "fire and brimstone" and in my own masochist way enjoyed this portion of the novel very much. The Bible we learned was Deuteronomy (the rules) and Acts (my way to salvation). While I am no longer Apostolic I do believe in the "fire and brimstone" still- the Anti-Christ, mark of the beast, the rapture, all of it. That's why I felt like I identified so much with Stephen at the end when he defends Jesus and Catholicism and has no idea why. I've reached my own conclusions but never went through that phase of disbelief or doubt. I've always believed it, just cause. But isn't that what faith is?
ReplyDeleteNow that you've finished the story have any of your opinions changed?
Celtic Dreamer,
ReplyDeleteYou know it sounds like you and I would have a lot in common when it comes to our families. I also grew up with devout Grandparents and being raised Catholic and I know all about Catholic guilt and intimidation. I wasn't surprised in the least when I saw the rampant use of intimidation by the Catholic church portrayed blatantly in the book. Some of it is still used to this day, its amazing what you find out when your little brother goes to Catholic school for a few years.
I agree whole-heartedly that a religion shouldn't be known for its terror and guilt but there's more to it than that. Also, Tullamore Drea, I love your explination of faith, because you're completely right. Faith is almost completely about belief and often not knowing why. Spirituality is a big thing for me and seeing a book so heavily based on it caught my interest, but it certainly wasn't what I expected in this tale. However this is all just a bunch of late night ramblings on my end.
WS
CD,
ReplyDeleteI like your post because it brings up an issue that will continue for us throughout the rest of the semester, and that is the inextricable link between politics and religion in terms of the construction of Irish identity. Because "Irishness" was often constructed on the basis of religion--namely, Catholicism--being anti-Catholic, or even speaking out against the Catholic church in Ireland was almost grounds for sedition! The dinner scene on pages 30-40 are very important because there you see the way in which Irish nationalism becomes intertwined with a Catholic identity...and the consequences of that connection. For one, it creates a culture of deeply embedded sexual oppression. Although Parnell was an incredibly inspiring nationalist leader in Ireland, his love affair with Kitty O'Shea completely ruined him and the whole country turned their backs on him because of his adultery. Furthermore, this connection between Catholicism and Irish nationalism erases the ways in which the Catholic church actually betrayed nationalist movements throughout history. Read on page 38,
"--Didn't the bishops of Ireland betray us in the time of the union when bishop Lanigan presented an address of loyalty to the Marquess Cornwallis? Didn't the bishops and priests sell the aspirations of their country in 1829 in return for catholic emancipation? Didn't they denounce the fenian movement from the pulpit and in the confessionbox?"
And so forth. As Joyce shows in this scene, even though the Catholic church was notoriously anti-uprising throughout the history of Irish anti-colonial struggles, individuals like Dante have "conveniently" forgotten these details.
I would like for you to also continue considering this statement in your blog as we move into our next novel:
"Without religion, maybe there would have never been any politics since people would have possibly not had anything to fight about or cared."
When we get to _Breakfast on Pluto_ consider the extent to which "religion" plays a role in the Northern Irish conflict. Is it religion? Or are things done in the NAME of religion?